0
$\begingroup$

Very specific and narrow question.

Part 91 operation, training and flying LR-45 - 2 pilots required. Not 135 regs, not 121 regs, not 91k regs, part 91 only (Class G space)

How would I log the training time while being the sole manipulator of the aircraft controls (acting as PIC or supervised PIC) during training for the SIC only rating?

The supervising pilot is ATP and CFII with all of the requisite type ratings.

I am a commercial pilot with AMEL and Instrument ratings and all required endorsements for the operation of the LR-45.

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.

(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:

  1. Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.

  2. The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

[...]

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

  1. A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) Except when logging flight time under § 61.159(c) [SIC TIME, when the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate; [CLASS MULTI ENGINE LAND]

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided -

(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category [AIRPLANE] and class of aircraft being flown [MULTI ENGINE], if a class rating is appropriate;

There is no mention of the requirement of having a type rating in order to log the PIC time or SIC time, obviously without a type rating the pilot being trained cannot be the "Pilot In Command" of record but the regs seem to indicate that PIC or SIC time may be logged by a pilot "when the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;" emphasis no mention of Type rating required to LOG the time. I understand the not being the PIC of record - just the log is what I am clarifying - and no I am not worried about what the airlines or the next employer is going to ask about the time, so let's not go there.

As far as the FAA is concerned for the ATP time requirements what would be the correct manner of noting the time spent acting as the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft that requires by certification two pilots for its operation, assuming I have met all of the other requirements other than the type rating?

Lets see if I can get one logical and correct answer based upon the regulations and not feeling and beliefs. If it's not in the regs, ignore it.

And I would agree with your answer about the requirements for a type rating and your well reasoned response except for one small word later in the regulation. At the end of (III) there is an or

(iii) [...]; or

(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided -

(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;

(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation -

  1. Preflight preparation;

  2. Preflight procedures;

  3. Takeoff and departure;

  4. In-flight maneuvers;

  5. Instrument procedures;

  6. Landings and approaches to landings;

  7. Normal and abnormal procedures;

  8. Emergency procedures; and

  9. Postflight procedures;

(C) The supervising pilot in command holds -

  1. A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or

  2. An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and

(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.

"Or" negated everything listed prior to the "or" All of the items listed after the word "or" are applicable in this situation so I am trying to figure out what I missed.

Thank you for your consideration.

$\endgroup$
3
  • $\begingroup$ Welcome to aviation.SE! I reformatted your question a little to hopefully make it clearer. If I changed it too much then you can simply edit further yourself or roll back my changes. Could you clarify what it means when you say you have "all required endorsements for the operation of the LR-45"? $\endgroup$
    – Pondlife
    Nov 5, 2021 at 21:06
  • $\begingroup$ The issue for you is (iii)(B). Are you going through an approved pilot in command training program. If so, that would require FAA approval and a LOA issued. Can your ATP and CFII rated pilot provide such a document? Those are usually reserved for Part 135 operations $\endgroup$
    – wbeard52
    Nov 6, 2021 at 2:01
  • $\begingroup$ That is the correct jeopardy question. Ding ding ding. For anyone out there get the LOA for the PDP prior to the training. Otherwise you will be sad as you remove all of the PIC time from your logbook. :-( don't make the same mistake that I did. Thank you for the answer that resulted in a bad outcome. Better than presenting the hours for the ATP certification and getting a really bad outcome. $\endgroup$
    – user60908
    Nov 9, 2021 at 22:29

1 Answer 1

1
$\begingroup$

There is no mention of the requirement of having a type rating in order to log the PIC time or SIC time.

This is not true. The regulation you mentioned clearly says this:

when the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated

The word rated includes type ratings such as the Learjet 45. See 61.5(b)(7) for a listing of ratings you can place on your pilot certificate. Since you are not rated, you cannot log any PIC time in that airplane.

As for logging SIC time. Refer to §61.55. You need to have:

(b) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command unless that person has within the previous 12 calendar months:

(1) Become familiar with the following information for the specific type aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested -

(i) Operational procedures applicable to the powerplant, equipment, and systems.
(ii) Performance specifications and limitations.
(iii) Normal, abnormal, and emergency operating procedures.
(iv) Flight manual.
(v) Placards and markings.

(2) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, performed and logged pilot time in the type of aircraft or in a flight simulator that represents the type of aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested, which includes -

(i) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop as the sole manipulator of the flight controls;
(ii) Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of pilot in command; and
(iii) Crew resource management training.

Once you have been trained by any type rated pilot and they have endorsed your logbook [61.55(d)(1)], you can then act as a second in command on flights carrying passengers. [See 61.55(f)(3)]


As far as the FAA is concerned for the ATP time requirements what would be the correct manner of noting the time spent acting as the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft that requires by certification two pilots for its operation, assuming I have met all of the other requirements other than the type rating?

Only log the time you are acting as the second in command which should be the total flight time. You cannot log PIC time as you are not rated in the airplane.

As far as meeting the aeronautical experience for an ATP certificate. You will need 1500 hrs of pilot time which includes PIC and SIC time. There are only a few requirements that must be met as PIC (sole manipulator of the controls, etc...)

Examiners know these rules and every FAA inspector with the task of oversight of DPE and other examiners ensure these rules are followed. It is quite easy for examiners to ask non-threatening questions to see how the flights were conducted and then decide to not accept those times for the certificate or rating sought.

$\endgroup$
0

Your Answer

By clicking “Post Your Answer”, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.