Since we cannot fly an RNAV approach with out of date GPS database, the approach in question is KCRE ILS 23. Whether it was asking for V2F or the full approach starting from ASHES (which is 18.5 DME to CRE VOR). Are intersections "moved" all that often? Is there a way to verify if this happened recently?

As of this writing, the approach plate has been last amended June 22, 2017.

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  • $\begingroup$ @MichaelHall: I agree with your comment, it would be interesting though to see how the regs protect against such interpretations, so I've reworded the title. $\endgroup$
    – user14897
    Aug 17, 2021 at 18:47
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    $\begingroup$ @ymb1, there are some good quotes from the regs in the answer here: aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/11568/… $\endgroup$ Aug 17, 2021 at 19:17
  • $\begingroup$ "an expired IFR-certified GPS [...] for an ILS approach?" Why would you need a GPS to fly an ILS approach? You rather need an CDI. Or do I miss something?? $\endgroup$
    – mins
    Aug 17, 2021 at 20:33
  • $\begingroup$ Using an IFR certified GPS that has an out of date database is supposedly acceptable en route assuming the pilot has verified that the waypoints have not changed. In my particular case, the flight plan was KTTA -> FAY -> KCRE. FAY VOR hasn't moved last I heard. So, if one gets the visual for R23 or R5 at KCRE, should be good to go from my understanding. However, I was wondering whether using it for the ILS approach was acceptable in IMC? Let's assume that the fixes haven't moved (maybe that assumption is safe considering the last amended date is 4 years ago?) $\endgroup$
    – saigafreak
    Aug 17, 2021 at 20:49
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    $\begingroup$ @mins - if the aircraft was not equipped with a DME receiver FIPEG could not be identified (unless you were legally able to substitute GPS to ID FIPEG). $\endgroup$
    – 757toga
    Aug 17, 2021 at 21:06

1 Answer 1


The approach plate specifies that "DME" is required for this approach (see the upper left of the approach plate). The FAA Instrument Flying Handbook (page 9-27) specifies that the GPS database must be "current" if the GPS is to be substituted for DME.

GPS Substitution for ADF or DME
Using GPS as a substitute for ADF or DME is subject to the following restrictions:

  1. This equipment must be installed in accordance with appropriate airworthiness installation requirements and operated within the provisions of the applicable POH/ AFM or supplement.
  2. The required integrity for these operations must be provided by at least en route RAIM or equivalent.
  3. WPs, fixes, intersections, and facility locations to be used for these operations must be retrieved from the GPS airborne database. The database must be current. If the required positions cannot be retrieved from the airborne database, the substitution of GPS for ADF and/ or DME is not authorized
  • $\begingroup$ "DME is required for this approach (see the upper left of the approach plate)": I don't think this box indicates the required equipment, just the ILS/DME frequency and pairing. The required equipment would be mentioned just below. Example. Source $\endgroup$
    – mins
    Aug 17, 2021 at 23:33
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    $\begingroup$ @mins - look in the briefing box just below the box you are referencing in your comment. $\endgroup$
    – 757toga
    Aug 17, 2021 at 23:53
  • $\begingroup$ Thanks for this information, very helpful. Found this: ifr-magazine.com/charts-plates/is-expired-data-usable "AIM 1-1-19 states that flying an IFR approach with an approved GPS “requires current database or verification that the procedure has not been amended since the expiration of the database” (emphasis added). The question becomes how to wade through all the dates found on a procedure so that you can determine whether it has been amended." From this it appears you can fly this approach, but the date is 2014 and I could be reading it wrong. $\endgroup$
    – saigafreak
    Aug 18, 2021 at 2:26
  • $\begingroup$ @saigafreak: AIM has been updated to: "All approach procedures to be flown must be retrievable from the current airborne navigation database". See: aviation.stackexchange.com/a/53146/14897 $\endgroup$
    – user14897
    Aug 18, 2021 at 2:52
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    $\begingroup$ @saigafreak: I'm not really sure, they do seem contradictory. $\endgroup$
    – user14897
    Aug 18, 2021 at 19:49

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